diff --git a/src/viv/viv.py b/src/viv/viv.py
index 5a14454..744c808 100755
--- a/src/viv/viv.py
+++ b/src/viv/viv.py
@@ -12,6 +12,7 @@ import hashlib
 import inspect
 import itertools
 import json
+import logging
 import os
 import re
 import shutil
@@ -33,6 +34,7 @@ from argparse import (
 from argparse import ArgumentParser as StdArgParser
 from dataclasses import dataclass
 from datetime import datetime
+from logging.handlers import RotatingFileHandler
 from pathlib import Path
 from textwrap import dedent, fill
 from types import TracebackType
@@ -50,7 +52,7 @@ from typing import (
 from urllib.error import HTTPError
 from urllib.request import urlopen
 
-__version__ = "23.5a5-28-g39786aa-dev"
+__version__ = "23.5a5-30-g9752582-dev"
 
 
 class Spinner:
@@ -64,8 +66,7 @@ class Spinner:
         self.busy = False
         self.spinner_visible = False
         self.message = message
-        # sys.stdout.write(message)
-        echo(message + "  ", newline=False)
+        sys.stderr.write(f"{a.prefix} {a.sep} {message} ")
 
     def write_next(self) -> None:
         with self._screen_lock:
@@ -110,6 +111,11 @@ class Spinner:
             sys.stderr.write("\r")
 
 
+def _path_ok(p: Path) -> Path:
+    p.mkdir(exist_ok=True, parents=True)
+    return p
+
+
 class Env:
     defaults = dict(
         viv_bin_dir=Path.home() / ".local" / "bin",
@@ -134,23 +140,22 @@ class Env:
     def _viv_spec(self) -> List[str]:
         return [i for i in os.getenv("VIV_SPEC", "").split(" ") if i]
 
+    @property
+    def _viv_log_path(self) -> Path:
+        return _path_ok(Path(self.xdg_data_home) / "viv") / "viv.log"
+
 
 class Cache:
     def __init__(self) -> None:
         self.base = Env().viv_cache
 
-    @staticmethod
-    def _ensure(p: Path) -> Path:
-        p.mkdir(parents=True, exist_ok=True)
-        return p
-
     @property
     def src(self) -> Path:
-        return self._ensure(self.base / "src")
+        return _path_ok(self.base / "src")
 
     @property
     def venv(self) -> Path:
-        return self._ensure(self.base / "venvs")
+        return _path_ok(self.base / "venvs")
 
 
 class Cfg:
@@ -199,6 +204,9 @@ class Ansi:
             re.VERBOSE,
         )
 
+        self.sep = f"{self.magenta}|{self.end}"
+        self.prefix = f"{self.cyan}viv{self.end}"
+
     def escape(self, txt: str) -> str:
         return self._ansi_escape.sub("", txt)
 
@@ -231,19 +239,94 @@ class Ansi:
         if not output:
             return
 
-        error("subprocess failed")
-        echo("see below for command output", style="red")
-        echo(f"cmd:\n  {' '.join(command)}", style="red")
+        log.error("subprocess failed")
+        log.error("see below for command output")
+        log.error(f"cmd:\n  {' '.join(command)}")
         new_output = [f"{self.red}->{self.end} {line}" for line in output.splitlines()]
-        echo("subprocess output:" + "\n".join(("", *new_output, "")), style="red")
-
-    def viv_preamble(self, style: str = "magenta", sep: str = "::") -> str:
-        return f"{self.cyan}viv{self.end}{self.__dict__[style]}{sep}{self.end}"
+        log.error("subprocess output:" + "\n".join(("", *new_output, "")))
 
 
 a = Ansi()
 
 
+class MutlilineFormatter(logging.Formatter):
+    def format(self, record: logging.LogRecord) -> str:
+        outlines = []
+        lines = (save_msg := record.msg).splitlines()
+        for line in lines:
+            record.msg = line
+            outlines.append(super().format(record))
+        record.msg = save_msg
+        record.message = (output := "\n".join(outlines))
+        return output
+
+
+class CustomFormatter(logging.Formatter):
+    def __init__(self) -> None:
+        super().__init__()
+        self.FORMATS = {
+            **{
+                level: " ".join(
+                    (
+                        a.prefix,
+                        f"{a.sep}{color}%(levelname)s{a.end}{a.sep}",
+                        "%(message)s",
+                    )
+                )
+                for level, color in {
+                    logging.DEBUG: a.dim,
+                    logging.WARNING: a.yellow,
+                    logging.ERROR: a.red,
+                    logging.CRITICAL: a.red,
+                }.items()
+            },
+            logging.INFO: f"{a.prefix} {a.sep} %(message)s",
+        }
+
+    def format(self, record: logging.LogRecord) -> str:
+        log_fmt = self.FORMATS.get(record.levelno)
+        formatter = MutlilineFormatter(log_fmt)
+        return formatter.format(record)
+
+
+class CustomFileHandler(RotatingFileHandler):
+    """Custom logging handler to strip ansi before logging to file"""
+
+    def emit(self, record: logging.LogRecord) -> None:
+        record.msg = a.escape(record.msg)
+        super().emit(record)
+
+
+def gen_logger() -> logging.Logger:
+    logger = logging.getLogger("viv")
+    if not logger.handlers:
+        logger.setLevel(logging.DEBUG)
+
+        ch = logging.StreamHandler()
+        ch.setLevel(logging.INFO if not Env().viv_debug else logging.DEBUG)
+        ch.setFormatter(CustomFormatter())
+
+        fh = CustomFileHandler(
+            Env().viv_log_path, maxBytes=10 * 1024 * 1024, backupCount=5
+        )
+        fh.setLevel(logging.DEBUG)
+        fh.setFormatter(
+            MutlilineFormatter("%(asctime)s | %(levelname)8s | %(message)s")
+        )
+
+        logger.addHandler(ch)
+        logger.addHandler(fh)
+    return logger
+
+
+log = gen_logger()
+
+
+def err_quit(*msg: str, code: int = 1) -> None:
+    log.error("\n".join(msg))
+    sys.exit(code)
+
+
 class Template:
     _standalone_func = r"""def _viv_use(*pkgs, track_exe=False, name=""):
     import hashlib, json, os, site, shutil, sys, venv  # noqa
@@ -427,28 +510,24 @@ def echo(
     msg: str, style: str = "magenta", newline: bool = True, fd: TextIO = sys.stderr
 ) -> None:
     """output general message to stdout"""
-    output = f"{a.viv_preamble(style)} {msg}"
-    if newline:
-        output += "\n"
+    output = f"{a.prefix} {a.sep} {msg}\n"
     fd.write(output)
 
 
-def error(msg: str, code: int = 0) -> None:
+def error(*msg: str, exit: bool = True, code: int = 1) -> None:
     """output error message and if code provided exit"""
-    echo(f"{a.red}error:{a.end} {msg}", style="red")
-    if code:
+    prefix = f"{a.prefix} {a.sep}{a.red}ERROR{a.end}{a.sep} "
+    sys.stderr.write("\n".join((f"{prefix}{line}" for line in msg)) + "\n")
+    if exit:
         sys.exit(code)
 
 
-def warn(msg: str) -> None:
-    """output warning message to stdout"""
-    echo(f"{a.yellow}warn:{a.end} {msg}", style="yellow")
-
-
 def confirm(question: str, context: str = "", yes: bool = False) -> bool:
     sys.stderr.write(context)
+    # TODO: update this
     sys.stderr.write(
-        a.viv_preamble(sep="?? ") + question + a.style(" (Y)es/(n)o ", "yellow")
+        f"{a.prefix} {a.sep}{a.magenta}?{a.end}{a.sep}"
+        f" {question} {a.yellow}(Y)es/(n)o{a.end} "
     )
     if yes:
         sys.stderr.write(f"{a.green}[FORCED YES]{a.end}\n")
@@ -460,8 +539,8 @@ def confirm(question: str, context: str = "", yes: bool = False) -> bool:
             return True
         elif ans in ("n", "no"):
             return False
-        sys.stdout.write("Please select (Y)es or (n)o. ")
-    sys.stdout.write("\n")
+        sys.stderr.write("Please select (Y)es or (n)o. ")
+    sys.stderr.write("\n")
 
 
 class CustomHelpFormatter(RawDescriptionHelpFormatter, HelpFormatter):
@@ -594,8 +673,7 @@ class ArgumentParser(StdArgParser):
         )
 
     def error(self, message: str) -> NoReturn:
-        error(message)
-        echo(f"see `{self.prog} --help` for more info", style="red")
+        error(message, f"see `{self.prog} --help` for more info")
         sys.exit(2)
 
 
@@ -678,7 +756,7 @@ class Meta:
     @classmethod
     def load(cls, name: str) -> "Meta":
         if not (Cache().venv / name / "vivmeta.json").exists():
-            warn(f"possibly corrupted vivenv: {name}")
+            log.warning(f"possibly corrupted vivenv: {name}")
             # add empty values for corrupted vivenvs so it will still load
             return cls(name=name, spec=[""], files=[""], exe="", id="")
         else:
@@ -693,6 +771,7 @@ class Meta:
         p.write_text(json.dumps(self.__dict__))
 
     def addfile(self, f: Path) -> None:
+        log.debug(f"associating {f} with {self.name}")
         self.accessed = str(datetime.today())
         self.files = sorted({*self.files, str(f.absolute().resolve())})
 
@@ -712,7 +791,7 @@ class ViVenv:
         spec = self._validate_spec(spec)
         id = id if id else get_hash(spec, track_exe)
 
-        self.name = name if name else id
+        self.name = name if name else id[:8]
         self.set_path(path)
 
         if not metadata:
@@ -752,14 +831,16 @@ class ViVenv:
             spec: sequence of package specifications
         """
         if not set(map(type, spec)) == {str}:
-            error("unexepected input in package spec")
-            error(f"check your packages definitions: {spec}", code=1)
+            err_quit(
+                "unexepected input in package spec",
+                f"check your packages definitions: {spec}",
+            )
 
         return sorted(spec)
 
     def create(self, quiet: bool = False) -> None:
-        if not quiet:
-            echo(f"new unique vivenv -> {self.name}")
+        log.info(f"new unique vivenv: {a.bold}{self.name}{a.end}")
+        log.debug(f"creating new venv at {self.path}")
         with Spinner("creating vivenv"):
             venv.create(
                 self.path,
@@ -788,6 +869,7 @@ class ViVenv:
 
     def activate(self) -> None:
         # also add sys.path here so that it comes first
+        log.debug(f"activating {self.name}")
         path_to_add = str(*(self.path / "lib").glob("python*/site-packages"))
         sys.path = [p for p in (path_to_add, *sys.path) if p != site.USER_SITE]
         site.addsitedir(path_to_add)
@@ -811,12 +893,11 @@ class ViVenv:
         )
 
     def tree(self) -> None:
-        _id = self.meta.id if self.meta.id == self.name else self.name
-
         items = [
             f"{a.magenta}{k}{a.end}: {v}"
             for k, v in {
                 **{
+                    "id": self.meta.id,
                     "spec": ", ".join(self.meta.spec),
                     "created": self.meta.created,
                     "accessed": self.meta.accessed,
@@ -825,7 +906,7 @@ class ViVenv:
                 **({"files": ""} if self.meta.files else {}),
             }.items()
         ]
-        rows = [f"\n{a.bold}{a.cyan}{_id}{a.end}", self._tree_leaves(items)]
+        rows = [f"\n{a.bold}{a.cyan}{self.name}{a.end}", self._tree_leaves(items)]
         if self.meta.files:
             rows += (self._tree_leaves(self.meta.files, indent="   "),)
 
@@ -855,7 +936,6 @@ def use(*packages: str, track_exe: bool = False, name: str = "") -> Path:
     if not vivenv.loaded or Env().viv_force:
         vivenv.create()
         vivenv.install_pkgs()
-
     vivenv.meta.addfile(get_caller_path())
     vivenv.meta.write()
 
@@ -905,12 +985,11 @@ def fetch_script(url: str) -> str:
     try:
         r = urlopen(url)
     except (HTTPError, ValueError) as e:
-        error(f"Failed to fetch from remote url:\n  {a.bold}{url}{a.end}")
-        echo(
+        err_quit(
+            "Failed to fetch from remote url:",
+            f"  {a.bold}{url}{a.end}",
             "see below:" + a.style("->  ", "red").join(["\n"] + repr(e).splitlines()),
-            style="red",
         )
-        sys.exit(1)
 
     return r.read().decode("utf-8")
 
@@ -1001,10 +1080,12 @@ class Viv:
         if len(matches) == 1:
             return matches[0]
         elif len(matches) > 1:
-            echo(f"matches {','.join((match.name for match in matches))}", style="red")
-            error("too many matches maybe try a longer name?", code=1)
+            err_quit(
+                "matches: " + ",".join((match.name for match in matches)),
+                "too many matches maybe try a longer name?",
+            )
         else:
-            error(f"no matches found for {name_id}", code=1)
+            err_quit(f"no matches found for {name_id}")
 
     def remove(self, vivenvs: List[str]) -> None:
         """\
@@ -1017,12 +1098,11 @@ class Viv:
         for name in vivenvs:
             vivenv = self._match_vivenv(name)
             if vivenv.path.is_dir():
-                echo(f"removing {vivenv.name}")
+                log.info(f"removing {vivenv.name}")
                 shutil.rmtree(vivenv.path)
             else:
-                error(
+                err_quit(
                     f"cowardly exiting because I didn't find vivenv: {name}",
-                    code=1,
                 )
 
     def freeze(
@@ -1045,19 +1125,19 @@ class Viv:
                 vivenv.install_pkgs()
                 vivenv.meta.write()
             else:
-                echo("re-using existing vivenv")
+                log.info("re-using existing vivenv")
 
             vivenv.touch()
             vivenv.meta.write()
 
-        echo("see below for import statements\n")
+        log.info("see below for import statements\n")
 
         if standalone:
             sys.stdout.write(self.t.standalone(spec))
             return
 
         if path and not self.local_source:
-            error("No local viv found to import from", code=1)
+            err_quit("No local viv found to import from")
 
         sys.stdout.write(self.t.frozen_import(path, self.local_source, spec))
 
@@ -1067,7 +1147,7 @@ class Viv:
         if quiet:
             sys.stdout.write("\n".join(self.vivenvs) + "\n")
         elif len(self.vivenvs) == 0:
-            echo("no vivenvs setup")
+            log.info("no vivenvs setup")
         elif full:
             for _, vivenv in self.vivenvs.items():
                 vivenv.tree()
@@ -1092,7 +1172,7 @@ class Viv:
         bin = vivenv.path / "bin" / cmd
 
         if not bin.exists():
-            error(f"{cmd} does not exist in {vivenv.name}", code=1)
+            err_quit(f"{cmd} does not exist in {vivenv.name}")
 
         full_cmd = [str(bin), *rest]
 
@@ -1104,7 +1184,7 @@ class Viv:
         metadata_file = vivenv.path / "vivmeta.json"
 
         if not metadata_file.is_file():
-            error(f"Unable to find metadata for vivenv: {vivenv_id}", code=1)
+            err_quit(f"Unable to find metadata for vivenv: {vivenv_id}")
 
         if use_json:
             sys.stdout.write(json.dumps(vivenv.meta.__dict__))
@@ -1114,20 +1194,20 @@ class Viv:
             vivenv.tree()
 
     def _install_local_src(self, sha256: str, src: Path, cli: Path, yes: bool) -> None:
-        echo("updating local source copy of viv")
+        log.info("updating local source copy of viv")
         shutil.copy(Cache().src / f"{sha256}.py", src)
         make_executable(src)
-        echo("symlinking cli")
+        log.info("symlinking cli")
 
         if cli.is_file():
-            echo(f"Existing file at {a.style(str(cli),'bold')}")
+            log.info(f"Existing file at {a.style(str(cli),'bold')}")
             if confirm("Would you like to overwrite it?", yes=yes):
                 cli.unlink()
                 cli.symlink_to(src)
         else:
             cli.symlink_to(src)
 
-        echo("Remember to include the following line in your shell rc file:")
+        log.info("Remember to include the following line in your shell rc file:")
         sys.stderr.write(
             '  export PYTHONPATH="$PYTHONPATH:$HOME/'
             f'{src.relative_to(Path.home()).parent}"\n'
@@ -1149,7 +1229,7 @@ class Viv:
             if self.local and self.local_source:
                 sys.stdout.write(str(self.local_source.parent) + "\n")
             else:
-                error("expected to find a local installation", code=1)
+                err_quit("expected to find a local installation")
         else:
             echo("Current:")
             sys.stderr.write(
@@ -1170,7 +1250,7 @@ class Viv:
         sha256, next_version = self._get_new_version(ref)
 
         if self.local_version == next_version:
-            echo(f"no change between {ref} and local version")
+            log.info(f"no change between {ref} and local version")
             sys.exit(0)
 
         if confirm(
@@ -1196,7 +1276,7 @@ class Viv:
     ) -> None:
         sha256, downloaded_version = self._get_new_version(ref)
 
-        echo(f"Downloaded version: {downloaded_version}")
+        log.info(f"Downloaded version: {downloaded_version}")
 
         # TODO: see if file is actually where
         # we are about to install and give more instructions
@@ -1241,7 +1321,7 @@ class Viv:
                 else:
                     p.unlink()
 
-            echo(
+            log.info(
                 "to re-install use: "
                 "`python3 <(curl -fsSL viv.dayl.in/viv.py) manage install`"
             )
@@ -1272,7 +1352,7 @@ class Viv:
         output = Env().viv_bin_dir / default_bin if not output else output.absolute()
 
         if output.is_file():
-            error(f"{output} already exists...exiting", code=1)
+            err_quit(f"{output} already exists...exiting")
 
         if freeze:
             spec = resolve_deps(reqs, requirements)
@@ -1320,7 +1400,7 @@ class Viv:
                     (tmppath / "viv.py").write_text(
                         # TODO: use latest tag once ready
                         fetch_script(
-                            "https://raw.githubusercontent.com/daylinmorgan/viv/script-runner/src/viv/viv.py"
+                            "https://raw.githubusercontent.com/daylinmorgan/viv/dev/src/viv/viv.py"
                         )
                     )
 
@@ -1579,52 +1659,49 @@ class Cli:
     def _validate_args(self, args: Namespace) -> None:
         if args.func.__name__ in ("freeze", "shim"):
             if not args.reqs:
-                error("must specify a requirement", code=1)
+                error("must specify a requirement")
         if args.func.__name__ in ("freeze", "shim"):
             if not self.viv.local_source and not (args.standalone or args.path):
-                warn(
+                log.warning(
                     "failed to find local copy of `viv` "
                     "make sure to add it to your PYTHONPATH "
                     "or consider using --path/--standalone"
                 )
 
+            # TODO: move this since this is code logic not flag logic
             if args.path and not self.viv.local_source:
-                error("No local viv found to import from", code=1)
+                error("No local viv found to import from")
 
             if args.path and args.standalone:
-                error("-p/--path and -s/--standalone are mutually exclusive", code=1)
+                error("-p/--path and -s/--standalone are mutually exclusive")
 
         if args.func.__name__ == "manage_install" and self.viv.local_source:
-            error(f"found existing viv installation at {self.viv.local_source}")
-            echo(
+            error(
+                f"found existing viv installation at {self.viv.local_source}",
                 "use "
                 + a.style("viv manage update", "bold")
                 + " to modify current installation.",
-                style="red",
             )
-            sys.exit(1)
 
         if args.func.__name__ == "manage_update":
             if not self.viv.local_source:
                 error(
                     a.style("viv manage update", "bold")
                     + " should be used with an exisiting installation",
-                    1,
                 )
 
             if self.viv.git:
                 error(
                     a.style("viv manage update", "bold")
                     + " shouldn't be used with a git-based installation",
-                    1,
                 )
         if args.func.__name__ == "run":
             if not (args.reqs or args.script):
-                error("must specify a requirement or --script", code=1)
+                error("must specify a requirement or --script")
 
         if args.func.__name__ == "info":
             if args.use_json and args.path:
-                error("--json and -p/--path are mutually exclusive", code=1)
+                error("--json and -p/--path are mutually exclusive")
 
     def _get_subcmd_parser(
         self,